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beBoy
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Latest version - build 0866 - January 17, 2018

on Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:05 am
Finally a build that is quite polished and less buggy. I have made some big changes under the hood, but it should work the same way overall.

So what's new in this build? Cat will now receive some free spells randomly after 6 minutes, give me feedback on this please. Thanks as always.

Build 0866 Change log:

Classic 2.018 BETA build 0866 - January 17, 2018
- (bug) fixed bugs where Restore Minerals charge $600 despite price was dropped to $300 back in build 0838
- (bug) fixed a bug where Auto-saved probe cannot save other Mice after buying a second Mice
- tweaked the on-screen message telling both Mice and Cat that a Mouse Magnet spell was casted


Classic 2.018 BETA build 0865 - January 17, 2018
- (bug) SCV spawning at top now has minimap pinging at top too
- added trigger to ping minimap when Cat buying Cat Toy and Refund DT
- (balance) added additional feed when Cat kills certain units:
Alex (Zealot) -> $3
4-Leg Orange (Dragoon) -> $2
Devin (Zergling) -> $2
Photon Cannon -> $2
Mouse Hole (Civilian) -> $4
Space Cheese (Tribunal)-> $18
Hardest Cheese (Fleet) -> $13
Shield Battery -> $5
Private Ryan (Marine) -> $1
SSJ Alex (Hero Zealot) -> $6
Hero Dragoon -> $5
Hero Marine -> $3
Mouse Hole (Brown) -> $10


Classic 2.018 BETA build 0863 - January 13, 2018
- (bug) fixed a bug where Cat Toy's range attack is not increasing despite Cat's range attack upgrades.


Classic 2.018 BETA build 0862 - January 11, 2018
- added a timer-based mechanism to introduce a random Cat spell into the arena to assist Cat. A Cat spell will be randomly introduced in the map after 6 minutes, for every minute. The chances of nothing is quite high, though.
- all Cat spell triggers are tweaked to accommodate the timer-based mechanism.
Below are the conditions and probability of the randomization:
1. (8/64) Jail Guard (if there isn't any)
2. (1/64) Remove Base Minerals (if there are at least 14 mineral patches in the arena)
3. (2/64) Burn Mice Money (if all Mice accumulates more than $4000 minerals + gas)
4. (5/64) Cat Toy (if there isn't any)
5. (1/64) Kitten (if there is one)
6. (2/64) Kitten (if there isn't any)
7. (8/64) Tweety (if there isn't any)
8. (8/64) Ball (if there isn't any)
9. (8/64) Queen (if there isn't any)
10. (2/64) Cat Builders (if Cat has more than $100)
11. (10/64) Mouse Magnet
12. (8/64) Zacker
13. (1/64) Refund DT (happens after 8 mins)
TrueFang
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Re: Latest version - build 0866 - January 17, 2018

on Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:29 pm
Cool! Can't wait to try this out.

Before having played with the random spell mechanic, these thoughts come to mind:
1) Deepens tactical skill in the game because you have to handle all spells well, not just play/counter a single minded strategy.
2) Introduces a more significant random element into the game. Competitively minded people may not necessarily like it, but games like Hearthstone seem to do very well with it, and it might add fun and variety to the game.
3) Might reduce cat strategic skill depth if you're just waiting for the random spells rather than having to make a tough decision between upgrades and spells.

Your probabilities seem to add up to 64/64, so you're guaranteed something. What is the probability of nothing? Or do you mean the spell that is supposed to help you out doesn't fire because (say) you'd get a tweety but you already have a tweety?
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beBoy
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Re: Latest version - build 0866 - January 17, 2018

on Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:21 am
The probability of nothing is 192/256, I have added 2 more switches to decrease all random chances by 8 times.
TrueFang
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Re: Latest version - build 0866 - January 17, 2018

on Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:09 pm
I have an idea that I'd like to run by you. What would the game feel like if we had cat compensation (with the squaring per player based on their income) control the frequency and quality of random spells?

One thing that bugged me about cat compensation is that it kind of devalues the game of getting kills to improve your income to get upgrades. In vT and vM it somtimes feels like the overwhelming majority of cat's income comes from compensation so we lost an important game mechanic. It's no longer as important to make sure you don't feed the cat and for cat to stay active - since the income is coming from compensation anyway.

If compensation was in the form of spells, we would have - through spells - the control on difficulty to balance the game. At the same time, it keeps staying active as cat and not feeding cat as important as it was before. In my opinion a huge improvement on the compensation idea.

If I code something up based on this, what would the chances be of making it into the official version? What do you think of the idea of having the randomness be still random, but guided a little by mice income?
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beBoy
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Re: Latest version - build 0866 - January 17, 2018

on Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:20 pm
Yeah I was thinking something similar and it all goes down to the question, how prosper Mice r in the game.

Regarding to cat compensation, I guess we r still figuring out how cat should be rewarded. Right now we have :
1. Mice death in proportion to Mice vs Cat skills
2. Cat killing units n buildings in proportion to Mice vs Cat skills
3. Mice income rate in inverse proportion to Mice vs Cat skills
4. Random cat spell, mostly random

Although I like how the randomness help freshening up the game, but it doesn't help the core issue where we r still looking for the delegate of how cat income should be based/governed.

Clearly, on one hand we have the argument that Cat should be compensated based on the skillset and effort that carry had in a particular game. On the other hand cat needs to receive some help when Mice is to powerful. These two aspects don't really agree w each other and I'm not sure if they r compliment to each other... But if they r complimenting then u guys we can find a balance.
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beBoy
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Re: Latest version - build 0866 - January 17, 2018

on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:07 am
That got me into thinking how Mice is quite balanced in the map... Mice income is derived based on 3 factors:
1. How good and how fast the Mice player is
2. How well other Mice players are doing, in terms of occupying the Cat
3. How well Cat is occupying this particular Mice player

Being a pro for #1 is directly reflected in how well Mice player can build up economy and evade deaths, which economy allows better upgrades, better walls (thus even better economy if bases are available nearby), which in turns better units to combat Cat's invasion and eventually leads to Cat's death.

#2 only contributes into how prosper Cat is. This is part of the balancing we're focusing on from the Cat's perspective.

#3 is the area where I feel we should focus more on. Cat's ability to occupy as many players as possible is quite limited, given there can only be 1 Cat (without deaths) and the need to harass more players at the same time increases as time goes on. StupidFred reminded me of the Mouse Poison spell, which would certainly harass players. Also, the newly introduced Random Cat spell also contributes to this area as well.


Back to #2, I think with more balancing and changes we're putting into how Cat is played, #3 affects #2 in terms of deaths. For every change we introduced into the map, Mice needs to have a counter that they can buy with economy, which is attainable by being good at building up economy. Currently, attack units (especially Hero attack units) with moderate upgrades, with storm from Jason and high HP of Devin, these are our counters for Cat's attack units.


Which leads back to #1, how Mice uses their money. Currently, Shield upgrade is more expensive but faster. This serves pretty well imho that, Mice with better economy (especially since there is a finite number of bases) can afford putting top dollar on high upgrades while spending $ to fend off/kill Cat. Since the upgrades and units are used to serve as a deterrence to Cat's attack units, Cat's attack units should be relatively cheap, quite readily available (though not as affordable as expendable), and will need comparable upgrades.


Combining all 3 will lead to the direction where, Cat attack units should be cheap with relatively low HP (not too low that storm can 1-hit kill the unit), Cat spells are used to keep Mice busy but shouldn't kill Mice directly, Cat upgrades be available, and income looks like it should be based on how well Cat occupies Mice and how badly Mice keep Cat at bay. What's your thoughts?
TrueFang
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Re: Latest version - build 0866 - January 17, 2018

on Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:28 pm
Ultimately the compensation system in vMx and vT1 is an attempt to make games less one-sided and feel meaningful even if there's a large skill differential between the players. Or say if specifically there is one mouse player that is really good and just defends everyone else. I don't like to describe it as a handicap system but that's essentially what it is. Like a single player game might increase the difficulty and spawn more monsters if you were doing too well, cat n mouse jungle can spawn more random cat spells if mice are doing very well.
Cerorec
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Re: Latest version - build 0866 - January 17, 2018

on Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:17 am
Too much to take in for me right now. I'll dissect later, but I'm just happy that I'm in the forum and Random CnM Jungle lives on! Keep up the builds!
Cerorec
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Re: Latest version - build 0866 - January 17, 2018

on Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:19 am
Excuse me, Classic CnM Jungle. Hehe... Good ol days of Random CnM Jungle...
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Re: Latest version - build 0866 - January 17, 2018

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