experimental build 0861 - January 2, 2018

Thanks TrueFang again for fixing some of the stuffs, here's a patched version to build 0860 that was released yesterday.

Change log:

So after having played these latest versions quite a bit, here's my general opinion:

1) About 50% of people claim it is OP in favor of Cat and the other 50% complain it's OP in favor of Mice. This is the sign of a well balanced map.
2) However the vast majority of games are very easy wins for one side or the other so I do understand the complaints.
3) Strategies seem a little one dimensional, especially for cat. There's rarely any chance to use any items because your money needs to go towards upgrades at all times. Mice generally seem to take 3 forge upgrades and buy zealots.

Comparing money's maps, the upgrades there are a significantly slower and more expensive, but this gives cat a strategic opportunity to buy items as well. And this gives the game more depth. The games there also seem less one-sided, perhaps because less of cat's income depends on how well he plays and more on how well mice are playing.

I wonder what would happen if you made upgrades much more expensive for cat, and much slower for mice, and gave cat compensation based on the number of scvs? How would that affect the feel of the game? I'm hoping to see more items and more diversity from mice to try and counter all the things cat can do.

Based on your feedback, I'm thinking to go back to my old days and keep 'Classic' relatively close to the original 'Cat & Mouse in jungle 2.2' by Robi[UTRJB], while I put in new ideas and mechanisms in my old 'Random Cat n Mouse Jungle' line.

Your 3rd comment above has gotten me thinking of a 'probably' interesting thing. There are four ideas that I want to try implementing, and because they're quite different than how CnMJ used to work, I feel wrong putting it in 'Classic':

1. Cat's # of DTs is represented by the amount of minerals. Cat having less than $100 = no DT, Cat having between $100-$199 = 1 DT, $200-$299 = 2 DT, and so forth. This way, Cat can spend his money more freely, which leads to #2 below.
2. Cat's DT spent on spell will be 'refunded' when it dies. I know, you may be thinking - "if it's refunded when it dies, Cat can simply get it again once it dies so there's no point killing it now!". I think #3 would prevent this.
3. When a refund occurs, that particular spell will be disabled temporarily for a short period of time.
4. Cat and Mice spells/units are available gradually throughout the game based on progress. Mice unit prices may vary based on # of that units in the arena. This is an expansion of mon3y's 5min-ban of Jail Guard.

Let me know how these sounds. I'm putting these in my version 8 of 'Random'.

The ideas you posted are intriguing. Also good point that if we're calling it classic, we should be honest about it and not make drastic changes. A 5 minute sunken timer, a no fly zone, and the compensation mechanic do not necessarily destroy the 'classic' feel of the game. If veterans feel familiar with the game and their old strategies and tricks are still basically effective, I'm comfortable calling it a 'classic' mod. Those are arguably minor deviations.

I have had several angry people in my games telling me to 'stop tweaking the map, it makes people stop playing' however. The enduring popularity of version 2 relative to the other maps, like the jump mode version 3 had, which made things more expensive the more you buy it, should tell us something. There is something about cat n mouse jungle classic that people like and that we keep screwing up.

I think I'll try my hand at a 'classic' m.0.n.3.y style compensation map based on 0861 and post it here shortly. I would like to playtest version 8 too.

Alright I have been watching discussions here for about the past 2 weeks and I have decided it is time for me to post. Sorry I've been absent so much Leo, been really busy with work and school. I've got about 2 weeks of break left so maybe I can get on for a bit.

Side note: The change for Mouse Magnet to go to Data Disc is funny because before I realized it was a Hydralisk in RCNMJ5, I had it as a Data Disc in that version of Cat n Mouse Simple that I previously discussed with you.

@TrueFang: The purpose of Jump Mode was not necessarily for most players. In fact it was meant for players such as myself and other frequent players that found playing as a Mouse to essentially be a science and if we all played in a game together, the Cat would almost certainly not win. I would also like to note that it was based off of the "Hard Mode" in the previous Random series and in a prototype map that beBoy developed called Jump Cat n Mouse Jungle.

As per the discussion on Jail Guards: I think that time limit of not being able to use a Jail Guard in the beginning of the game is silly. A Cat that is knowledgeable would only use a Jail Guard when someone is trying to save, otherwise they just put a huge detriment in their hard-earned income. And for a Mouse to counter this it literally only costs 50 minerals to allow the save to go through (75 in Classic 3). It just seems like it is completely unnecessary and forces the Cat to leave the base they are trying to invade when time is precious, especially in the early game when this timer is to be implemented.

I am slowly working on building Classic 3 from the ground up, so we will see how it goes. However I haven't decided if I will be calling it Classic 3 because the changes in it are vastly different and essentially make it a completely different series. But we will see

I would love for someone to show me how to make the save go through for 50 minerals, even after the change to sunkens to make them die to probes in 1 hit. beBoy attempted this against my cat and wasn't able to make it work. And if we are doing something to encourage saving in the early game, I prefer the timer over invincibility.

Edit: and I don't think this harms cat early much because, as a cat, people being saved is a minor annoyance at worst. Certainly I wouldn't stop invading for it if I didn't think I'd get a kill. It only makes the early game more fun for mice and encourages new players to stay and learn the ropes.

Why are either of those needed? Players that are experienced know to not save early on which is then countered by auto-save for people that died early on. Harming the Cat for playing the game properly and the Mice dying does not make sense. It's not something that needs to be balanced, although I do see where you are coming from. I guess that a lot of the experienced players don't play as much anymore so it's not as much of an issue, but I feel like doing changes like this takes a lot of the skill out of the game and just making it easier for people. This game has always been a micro-heavy game and I think that's how it should stay. People that mess up get punished, it's a video game

TL;DR: I don't think there needs to be incentive to save early on outside of needing multiple Mice to keep the Cat off of your tail early game.

I'm surprised the sunken timer is such a controversial change. I agree that taking skill out of the game is bad, and that punishing the cat for doing well is bad. I don't see how the sunken timer does either of those things.

We could lower the cat's HP by 25% for every mice kill. This would make the game easier for new players because the cat might let them live since they are not that dangerous anyway and the HP is worth more. Now this would be an anti-fun change that actually punishes the cat for doing well and makes the game much easier for mice. In contrast, a 5 minute sunken timer doesn't really change the balance in any way and does not punish cat for doing well at all.

The only way I can make sense out of your claiming the sunken timer removes skill from the game is if there is some kind of micro skill that allows mice to counter sunkens and save even if they are available - as you claimed in your earlier post. I don't believe there is. beBoy said the same until he played against me and was unable to make it work.

Currently, the best strategy is not to save at all (as you say). I actually think *that* removes skill from the game - the only thing you need to know now is never to save, rather than taking a calculated risk. Even 'gracious hosts' that want to make sure everyone has a good time and want to save a new player cannot do that because they would just feed a kill themselves.

I think that all spells that are available to the Cat should be allowed to be used at any point during the game. Mouse is allowed to do the same.

My point is that if the Cat captures a Mouse then they should earn that capture. This game is not like Winter where you don't really build up walls and upgrades, you just build up economy. This game is a very different mindset in that sense because a Mouse's life is worth more. They have the opportunity to become a much larger threat.

Also, the timer to prevent the Cat from using Jail Guards is very moot because it really does punish the Cat. If I played in a corner base, I can put a Stargate up in 55 seconds. You don't think that if other players started practicing more and getting better like that and forcing the Cat to run to the center of the map to distract them, this would be put the Cat at a huge disadvantage?

The last thing about Jail Guards and why that timer is unnecessary from a Mouse aspect is that 1-2 Stupid Devins will prevent the Jail Guards from attacking your Mouse on spawn. The Mice that just saved/were saved can then kill the Jail Guards with their Probes and then proceed to run away. That is 50-100 minerals to save a Mouse, and I just don't think that cost needs to be lowered. I do agree with raising the amount that a player receives when they save though, I increased it to 55 in classic 3.

Welcome back man. I'm surprised to see much have been discussed around the Sunken timer. Keep in mind that SCR and the now-free SC BW community is so young to the point that majority of the players are new and very green. The gaming landscape has changed since our days and players' preferences have changed. My personal feeling about this change is a bit bitter, that players want to have some quick fun rather than willing to grill themselves to obtain the big surprise of success as reward. But since we have the power and knowledge of making maps, I feel we should at least accommodate their quests and make something they would want to play. Once they have evolved and improved, and if they want to move up to the next level, at least they have something a bit different to choose from, hopefully there will be other players in the community that share similar skill level and passion. It is also this reason that I welcome modding.

I will work on how to get u guys access to upload ur own maps here. Also, TrueFang, u can refer ppl here if u ever have ppl telling u to stop modding. Modding with discussion will greatly improve this map series. I'm also looking forward to talk w money on his changes too, too bad he's busy at this moment.

Thank you and happy new year! I just don't see a valid justification for it outside of making it so mice can save easier early on All said and done, 5 minutes is not that big of a difference in time from the start, but forcing the Cat to leave attacking a base of somebody that already has a Stargate up can be a huge detriment to the Cat as you know too.

There just may be another solution that butchering the Cat's early game to good players.

I also share ur view on this, that's why it's implemented only in the mods, though I think this can be evolved into a new gaming mechanism, rather than a one-off thing specific to Jail Guard.

Me and u can cook up some harder version for Mice that don't die.

"players want to have some quick fun rather than willing to grill themselves to obtain the big surprise of success" This has certainly been a trend in the past 20 years, but I'm not sure if this is really true for the SC community. Note that even a modern game like dark souls is massively popular *because* it has a reputation for being difficult. StarCraft has a similar reputation for being unforgiving and may draw people who are attracted to the idea of a real challenge.

Both of you agree that the sunken timer is something that makes the game easier for mice and removes skill from the game. I think I actually agree with most of your feelings on the matter, I just disagree on the facts. The change makes the game more interesting for mice, and has no effect on the difficulty for either side. There is nothing difficult about sitting dead doing nothing, and nothing skilful about simply never saving. One ling cannot avoid feeding at least 1 and possibly several kills to cat.

The only way I see to resolve this is to hop on a game and have you show me the micro skills you are talking about. Otherwise we're just talking in circles.

I can definitely show you sometime. I'm not sure what time I will be free tonight, but what server do you play on and what time zone are you in so we can arrange something? In the meantime, this is how you can see someone that is really good playing the game here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vxf_Pi4l4c. There are other videos on his channel that shows how mice utilize pylon dodging to avoid being killed by the Cat. Essentially you build a Nexus with 2 pylons next to it so you can run to the corner Mouse Hole, then buy 3 SCVs, Gateway, Cybernetics Core, 1-2 Pylons in front of your base and then Stargate. If you do that in the optimal time without a Cat going into your base, you can get a Stargate in 55 seconds. If you are in the bottom or top middle bases, you can do the same thing with 2 Stargates completely blocking off the middle of that side in about 1:05. I forget the exact time but I can show you that as well. I typically play on USEast, but it seems like USWest is much more popular so I'll probably play on there. My username is Why So Serious and I'm on Central time (9:30 AM here).

By the way something that could help with what you are trying to do is make Auto Save happen more often.

Also beBoy, I just saw your message in that comment section

We should certainly play together sometime soon Add me on bnet. Halved#2114

I'm on fairly often, always USWest.

Hey guys. Happy to be here! Just wanted to add a couple of comments. First of all, thanks for making your versions in the first place beBoy, and for coming back to SCRM. Thanks to you, Jungle has got to be one of the most popular maps on b.net right now.

Secondly, I've been balancing this game for over 6 months now, and I feel like it's in a pretty solid state for the current player base. My first tweaks started privately in mid June and eventually lead to the creation of vM1 and the M series. This then lead to the popularity of vM9 and TrueFang's subsequent edit of vM9 known as vMT. After this I began working on the vN series and created the most current iteration, vN3, which I believe is the most balanced version that I've created to date.

I agree with many player's concerns that versions are being created too frequently, especially with at least 3 mappers constantly making updates now. It's confusing and just puts an unnecessary mental burden on the player.

beBoy wrote:I'm also looking forward to talk w money on his changes too, too bad he's busy at this moment."

So, I'm hoping that I can add some useful input. I think that the best move going forward is to gather everyone who is releasing new versions and create a single collaborative version. That is, put the best ideas from each person's head inside of a single map. Then we can expand from there. And this way beBoy might finally be able to get this thing out of beta . I'm here to help and add any assistance where I can. Let me know what you think. I play on USWest, b.net tag: kingNipple#1226

Would you mind posting your latest iteration? I'm curious to see the modifications that you have added.

StupidFred wrote:Would you mind posting your latest iteration? I'm curious to see the modifications that you have added.

www DOT staredit DOT net/sc1db/file/3926/

Some of the changes I'm most proud of are (and the ones that took the most time to balance): complete reworking of upgrades and timings, cat compensation based on how well mice are doing, 1 time cat teleport home, early game mice compensation for dying, jail guards and zacker delays. Though, I've made hundreds of changes -- some big and some small -- throughout the versions.

m.0.n.3.y, can you make a list of those changes please? So that we may steal the ones we like. With credit of course.

I like the goal to create a unified version combining the best of all of our ideas while keeping the classic feel of the map. In fact, that is why I started posting here in the first place. I wonder if that is an attainable goal. I believe the map should have at least these 3 major changes (pioneered by m.0.n.3.y):

 - 5 minute sunken timer delay
 - No Fly Zone
 - Cat Compensation

Of these, the sunken timer is the smallest change. If we can't come to an agreement on that, that doesn't bode well for us to agree on either the presence or the tuning of things like cat compensation.

Do you guys have any ideas on how to resolve creative differences? If the final map is made by some sort of political process designed to compromise with each of our desires, the final map could be much worse than if we each made our own maps.

By the way, I think 0861 is in a really good place now. For me it's pretty close to perfect.

So after looking at your post, some of these are ideas that I actually incorporated into test maps about 6 years ago lol...

I had a map that detected which side was doing worse and gave them a buffer because of it, which it seems like what is happening in your game. I detected it based off of how many SCVs were controlled, bases occupied, countdown timer elapsed, minerals/gas accumulated, Forges controlled and player beacons controlled. It's interesting that somebody implemented almost the exact same idea into their map as well

I also had a warp to jail switch. It was allowed to be used once every minute and had a 10 second delay after it was used, similar to a Meltdown countdown. It was mainly to prevent the Cat from being trapped by Mice as well as to get back to the base to stop saves, however it wasn't instant so that the Cat doesn't just instantly kill the Mice there. The Mice also got a warning, which I'm not sure if it was excessive or not, but it was before I had to taken a break from playing Remastered.

Did anyone fix the BB Mode X2 Activated in their latest versions? It was bugged in 0835 which all of this is based off of. I fixed it in Classic 3.

You have removed a lot of the sound files that were used in the spawning of several units.

Why was the cost of High Templar increased when it is hardly used at 25?

Why remove the Overlord from the Cat's buildings? Now the Cat can no longer Infest a Command Center and spawn Zackers!.

The map I have been working on is still a work in progress, but it is quite a bit different from this one. I'll post it when I get a chance later.

TrueFang wrote:m.0.n.3.y, can you make a list of those changes please? So that we may steal the ones we like. With credit of course.

I like the goal to create a unified version combining the best of all of our ideas while keeping the classic feel of the map. In fact, that is why I started posting here in the first place. I wonder if that is an attainable goal. I believe the map should have at least these 3 major changes (pioneered by m.0.n.3.y):

 - 5 minute sunken timer delay
 - No Fly Zone
 - Cat Compensation

Of these, the sunken timer is the smallest change. If we can't come to an agreement on that, that doesn't bode well for us to agree on either the presence or the tuning of things like cat compensation.

Do you guys have any ideas on how to resolve creative differences? If the final map is made by some sort of political process designed to compromise with each of our desires, the final map could be much worse than if we each made our own maps.

Agreed. I truly believe a combined singular version is the best way to go, but that's only if everyone else believes the same of course. I'll also add to your list upgrades re-balancing, but I suppose that's a personal bias. Best way moving forward imo is to set up an instant messaging session in a more user friendly form with instant texting, etc. and hash out what's possible.

I'll work on getting a change list but there have been so many that it might take a while. I'll work on it though.

StupidFred wrote:Did anyone fix the BB Mode X2 Activated in their latest versions? It was bugged in 0835 which all of this is based off of. I fixed it in Classic 3.

You have removed a lot of the sound files that were used in the spawning of several units.

Why was the cost of High Templar increased when it is hardly used at 25?

Why remove the Overlord from the Cat's buildings? Now the Cat can no longer Infest a Command Center and spawn Zackers!.

The map I have been working on is still a work in progress, but it is quite a bit different from this one. I'll post it when I get a chance later.

BB Mode is still broken in vN3 I believe. Templar cost was increased based on a lot of testing showing that they were able to kill Cat air units too easily. 25 minerals is basically an inconsequential amount for a mouse, especially one on >2 bases. The ability to storm air units and then storm the high templars themselves thus dealing damage and giving Cat no income for basically no cost to the mouse was very frustrating to many new to moderate level Cats, and even a couple of advanced Cats as well. At 50 minerals Mice are forced to think about the cost vs benefit ratio a little more and even consider using alternatives like missile turrets or even Wraiths. It seems to have worked out thus far in alleviating some Cat complaints while not getting too much backlash from mice. That being said, 50 may have been a bit of an overstep, and a reduction to 35 or 40 might be in order. But again, we're dealing with such small values that for a mouse I think it makes less than a 1% difference in overall game play and balance.

Cat Overlord shouldn't be removed? If it is this is the first I'm hearing of it. I'm assuming you mean the overlord that stays above the upgrades and hive.

Yeah that sounds good.

Again, I think the best move going forward is to make a singular map, with periodic updates. That is, balancing/flavor updates ~1nce per month and not substantially more for the benefit of the player. And that the best way to start doing this is to come together via instant message so we can all talk more efficiently. The main thing to discuss is each person's personal philosophy of the game. That means things like: how you think the game should be played, what you think the flow of the game should be, how long you think games should last, who should have advantages at what time, etc. etc. If we can't agree on basic philosophies of gameplay then we're obviously not going to be able to collaborate because we'll all be wanting to create a different game. Cat n Mouse Jungle is in reality a fairly simple game in comparison to others, but it can be made to play in many different ways. That is, we could all edit the exact same Jungle map and each come out with versions that play and FEEL very different. And this all comes down to basic philosophies -- so if we can't get our philosophies in line then collaboration is obviously unattainable.

Then again, the argument could be made that who the hell cares. SCRM has a playerbase less than like ~2000, and Cat n Mouse has substantially less than that. So who really cares haha. It's a small game with a small audience so is it really worth this much time and effort? My past efforts should indicate that this is probably not my point of view, but it's something interesting to think about

How is BB Mode strong exactly? I noticed that you also made it destroy scvs and probes, but the only version that BB Mode was a threat was Classic 3 because of it destroying the player 8 arbiter tribunals making it quite awkward for Mice at times. In Classic 2 it is much less powerful when you can just use Reavers to block off your base instead.

I just don't think High Templar is worth 50 minerals. It uses splash damage which auto kills most teammates' units. They also don't do much damage to the Cat, it's only to the air units. It also only has Psionic Storm. To each their own though.

Yes the Overlord above the Hive allows players to create Infested Terrans and I can't remember if it affects Spawn Broodlings or not.

My version isn't based on Classic 2 like you 3 have been doing. Mine is an adaptation of 3, but loosely. The terrain is really the only thing that is the same.

StupidFred wrote:How is BB Mode strong exactly? I noticed that you also made it destroy scvs and probes

What? Who said BB mode was "strong"? I've made exactly 0 edits to BB mode so I have no idea what you're talking about. Would you please reference things you're responding to in quotes.

StupidFred wrote:I just don't think High Templar is worth 50 minerals. It uses splash damage which auto kills most teammates' units. They also don't do much damage to the Cat, it's only to the air units. It also only has Psionic Storm. To each their own though.

Yes it's pretty common knowledge that templars are only used to kill Cat air units, unless your'e doing some sort of Archon build. I said specifically why templars are worth more than 25 minerals in my previous post.

StupidFred wrote:Yes the Overlord above the Hive allows players to create Infested Terrans and I can't remember if it affects Spawn Broodlings or not.

That Overlord hasn't been removed. So, again, I have no idea what your'e talking about.

m.0.n.3.y wrote:Again, I think the best move going forward is to make a singular map, with periodic updates. That is, balancing/flavor updates ~1nce per month and not substantially more for the benefit of the player. And that the best way to start doing this is to come together via instant message so we can all talk more efficiently. The main thing to discuss is each person's personal philosophy of the game. That means things like: how you think the game should be played, what you think the flow of the game should be, how long you think games should last, who should have advantages at what time, etc. etc. If we can't agree on basic philosophies of gameplay then we're obviously not going to be able to collaborate because we'll all be wanting to create a different game. Cat n Mouse Jungle is in reality a fairly simple game in comparison to others, but it can be made to play in many different ways. That is, we could all edit the exact same Jungle map and each come out with versions that play and FEEL very different. And this all comes down to basic philosophies -- so if we can't get our philosophies in line then collaboration is obviously unattainable.

Let me highlight this as the most important part of my previous post. Although it seems like your'e doing your own thing so perhaps collaboration will have to come from beBoy, Fang, and myself. Good luck on your version though!

You said BB Mode was broken, unless you meant the triggers for it don't work lol. Broken has 2 meanings when it comes to games.

My point was that I just think the Templar on it's own is rather weak unless you catch the Cat off guard. I think 35 or 40 would be more appropriate. Because at 50 I would rather just build missile turrets.

I can definitely help with whatever collaboration you are looking to do, I have played this map for thousands of hours and I wish that was an exaggeration lol. I just wanted to let you know that my version is hardly even the same series at this point.